Interview With Cassie Watts on Money Mindset as a parent & female entrepreneur

Introduction to Cassie

I had the pleasure of interviewing Cassie Watts as my guest on The Jen Lister Podcast recently, she is someone that helps entrepreneurs in business thrive in the comfort of living their wild and mindful self. She's also a speaker, a coach, and she really focuses on living mindfully - plus she is trained in something called Rapid Transformational Therapy.

Here is the first part of my interview with Cassie, where we talk about her story, the impact a parents perspective of money can have on their children, advice on how to speak to your children about money, and why women in particular can have a difficult relationship with money.

You will see Cassie’s responses in black, and my questions and reflections in orange.

Cassie would you be happy to share your journey? What has been your journey from where you were years ago, to where you are now?

I grew up as the youngest of six, and my parents have polar opposite relationships with money. And I didn't ever think anything about my relationship with money.

I got married at 19 and I didn't have a clue how to manage money, I didn't even know it was even a thing to feel something about money.

My husband was a student at the time, we had kids really quickly. I had no idea what money was coming in, I had no idea what money was going out. I remember paying for things and handing my bank card over to the cashier and hoping it works.

It got to the point where we couldn't afford toilet roll at the end of the month, we were using Kleenex. And I was so embarrassed. My mum came over and I had to apologise that there was no toilet roll. I was just absolutely mortified.

We had credit cards and student loans, and family loans, and I just felt so ashamed, really ashamed and embarrassed. I didn't feel like I could reach out to anybody… And I didn't want to call my parents and say, ‘can you just lend me three quid for some toilet roll?’.

We ended up borrowing over £65,000 and we had very little to show for it. And I thought this has got to stop, I need to do something about this.

Fortunately my brother is a bit of an Excel whizz, and he created this Excel spreadsheet, a budgeting spreadsheet. I looked at that, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I haven't got a clue what comes in and what goes out. This spreadsheet required you to go through your bank with a fine tooth comb so that you can see actually what is coming in and going out.

We had several subscriptions that we'd been paying for for over three years that I didn't even know about. I started telling people about this, and so many people had the same issue, they would message me and say, ‘oh my gosh in the last year, I've had £350 paying for this subscription and I've been paying for it for the last six years!’

It got me thinking, okay, how many other people actually have got a clue about what was going in and going out, are people actually looking at their bank accounts in this way and analysing it?

I realised that actually, my relationship with money was horrendous. It was something to not be talked about or thought about, and it definitely wasn't to be forecasted for or talked about in a really high vibe, positive way.

Wealth wasn't anything, investing wasn't anything. And you know, you and I've spoken before about the difference between money and wealth. And the feelings that that evokes. I started looking at ways to get out of debt and start creating wealth for me and my family.

I'm happy to say now that we're completely debt free. And I won't ever, ever go there again. I mean, look, not all debt is bad. Sometimes you have to invest in something to create wealth. And other times, you're just in debt, because you don't know how to manage money.

And to support what you've said before, it's about the day to day living. If you're using that debt to support your day to day living, that can be a scary spiral.

Yes and usually your personal finances are a really good indication as to how your relationship with money is gonna be with your business.

We've talked before about how important your parents are when it comes to your money mindset. What do you think you took from your parents?

From growing up, I thought money was very stressful, that money causes arguments, that money is hard to come by, that you have to work really, really, really, really hard for money. And it's just this really negative thing. This thing that isn't fun. This thing that doesn't come easily, this thing that causes arguments.

And I didn't realise that between the age of two and five is when your relationship with money is formed. We have a big responsibility as parents.

I have a daughter who's 2, so that's why I feel like I need to absorb everything. And I'm actually doing Cassie's programme in the New Year, which I'm really excited about.

One of the things that Cassie talked about in her money workshop that really resonated with me was if you go into a shop with your child, and they say ‘I want this’ and you say 'no, we can't afford it'. What does that teach your child and what is being ingrained into your child's brain? That scares me - which is why working on your money mindset is so important to me. How would you tell people to talk to their children in the best possible way when it comes to money?

When there is this lack mindset, it is not just lack of not having money, it's this lack of a lifestyle that isn't available to us. So that's for them, those kinds of people, the people on the other side, that's not us. We can't afford things like that.

It instils this belief that even if you are actually amazing with numbers, it doesn't matter, because we aren't wealthy people. And so something that's really important is being really aware, noticing your language around money, and how you feel about that.

If a kid or spouse or even you think ‘I can't afford that’, rather than ‘I can afford that’, say ‘I'm just choosing to spend my money on other things’. That's a really, really different feeling - you instantly might stand differently, you breathe differently, you feel differently, suddenly, your shoulders go back a little bit, you stand a little taller, because actually, I am wealthy enough to be able to afford whatever it is you want. I'm choosing to spend my money on energy bills or Christmas, or birthdays, or whatever that might be.

The child doesn't need to know the exact details but by explaining you are choosing to spend money on other things right now, it helps the child to think, oh, actually, we're fine. It doesn't need to be a moment of stress and this feeling of lack and want and pining for things that I can't have.

Yeah, absolutely. My daughter is obsessed with magazines. And I think I told you before she she calls them menus. So she ran into the shop the other day and said, 'Mummy, I want a menu. I want a menu'. I took a deep breath. And then I said, 'Mabel we're here to buy daddy's stuff for daddy's birthday cake'. It was quite difficult. She picked up the magazine, it was a bit of a process. But I did find that, like you say, not focusing on what you can't have but focusing on the opposite, which is what you can have, what we're here for, e.g. 'the plan is to buy dinner', 'our plan is to buy a cake', it did help.

And I'm really glad it helped. Also, that's really interesting, because there are different types of spenders, and the type of spend that you are is changeable all the time as you heal your relationship with money.

And as you change your relationship with money, you will become a different type of spender. Sometimes you might have an impulsive spender. An impulsive spender, is not actually about the thing that they're buying it is the dopamine, that chemical hit that they get in that moment of buying something new.

In that moment of 'can I have this' there is a really, really great teaching opportunity. Because quite often, particularly with younger children, you can say to them, ‘we're actually not gonna get that today. But how about this?’ And it's not even the thing that they want. It's the dopamine that they received from being an impulsive spender.

With my children, I put guidelines around that. So if it's not already on their list, and if they don't have the budget for it, then it's a no. Our kids have bank accounts that they have access to, but also if they do certain things throughout the week, then they get their pocket money on a Saturday. 20% of that money goes into a separate account that they don't get to touch and that they're saving. It's teaching them to live off of 80% of their income if you like, and then 20% they get to invest in something. So it's helping them to understand that okay, I'm in a shop, I really want this thing. It's not on my list, so they look at their bank account for their play money to see if they can afford it. If it's not on their list, then I understand that that's the impulsive buy that they might regret later.

We talked about women in particular, why do you think that women sometimes have a difficult relationship with money, for example I know I struggle to spend money on myself sometimes. I'm quite happy buying gifts for other people. But if I want a massage, for example, I feel guilty doing that bit of self care, is there a reason that women sometimes have a different relationship with money?

Yeah. I love this part of the conversation. We don't realise so much of our subconscious is handed down from generations before. And we're not that far away, from a time when women didn't have their own bank account, when women couldn't inherit property, when women couldn't buy their own drink in a pub, when women couldn't represent themselves in court, or couldn't have a job in law.

Really, that was in our lifetime, definitely our parents lifetime. And so there is handed down this feeling that women aren't capable (obviously not true!). And even today in larger corporations, it is still a man's world. I'm not against men having those high paid positions. Not at all. I'm all for equality. But there is definitely still generationally, and culturally, a long way to go. Before we are seen as financial equals, even though there are huge investments being made by private companies, by entrepreneurs, and by our own government, into supporting women into business, women into being entrepreneurs and being their own bosses.

You know, it really wasn't that long ago in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, when laws were being changed so that women could have their own bank accounts. And what does that say to a woman when they hear you can't have your own bank account? Or you need a man to go and get a loan out for you? Because you can't do that yourself? I mean, it's absurd.

Those stats that you shared in your money mindset workshop, shocked me so much.

Yeah. And it kind of puts the fire in my belly for my daughters as well. Think about women through the ages. And the message is you aren't capable? And we know looking back through the ages, just how capable women are. Yeah, but let's be honest, there are still relationships now, where the man is the head of the home, or the head of the business, and the woman is the homemaker. And they have separate bank accounts, she gets an allowance. Now, if that's how you run in your family, that's absolutely fine. But to me it is really alien, that a woman has to have an allowance.

I think there is still a second class feeling sometimes. So to understand that it is helpful to have a really good look at your upbringing how money was talked about, and divided in your own home growing up.

Nowadays both parents work. But who does the school run? And who does the washing and the cooking and the cleaning? Who does the meal plans? Who does the school trips and who does the extracurricular activities in most homes? I think it's the woman.

I think culturally women take on an awful lot. And often I think they don't look themselves in the mirror and say you're actually amazing. You're actually doing really, really, really well with wealth and with money and we tie in with life. I don't think women give themselves enough credit.

No and you said that at the workshop about looking yourself in the mirror and I I definitely did that last night and I was like, ‘you've done so well today well done for getting through the day with the challenges that have been thrown at you’.

I think what you're saying is right is - look at yourself and think about the boundaries, because it naturally falls to us, females. We are the ones often that need to spark those difficult conversations off. I find and reset the boundaries and say, ‘this is what I need you to do’, and it kind of feels uncomfortable, but it really works.

It's totally uncomfortable. And you know, I think that there's so much at the moment about feminism and men. But I think that sometimes men get a hard rap. Because definitely, I know we're here to talk about money, but definitely in my own marriage. I've expected him to know what I need, and been really hurt and offended when he can't read my mind. Usually, around being a working mum, we've definitely had those hard conversations where I've said to him, ‘look, I need you to do this’. And also, other times I felt really embarrassed. And I've had to be really vulnerable with him around my relationship with money around that relationship as a working mum around my relationship as an entrepreneur and say, this is hard. I just need you to carry me for a little bit because I'm struggling with this. And 99.9% of the time, all of that garbage in my head that I think I know what he's thinking… I don't know - and he has the same worries.

I think when it comes to men and bringing up boys as well, there's such a fundamental role and importance of that. Because although we're trying to bring up girls that are capable and empowered, we also need to bring up boys who allow that to happen and are comfortable with women being in control and in charge and leading and having that symbiotic relationship.

Yeah, this is really interesting, actually. And it all folds into the relationship with money and wealth. But it might seem a little bit off topic, but it's really not. There's a brilliant book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. And I'm really intrigued by all forms of self care and inner child re-parenting for both men and women. So I listened to this book and it was just incredible to me how this guy, he's a therapist for men, talks about how men who grow up with the matriarchy with women, very strong, powerful women in their lives and a lack of a strong male role model in his life actually grows up to be this 'Yes' man. He calls it a nice guy who doesn't feel confident within himself. And so we have this male mental health epidemic because they don't know how to be vulnerable.

And so when I say men get a hard rap and for me it all folds into this because I think sometimes there are feminists who want to push men down (this might be controversial - I might get some backlash for this - I think that I'm a feminist where I want equality, but I feel like sometimes there are feminists who want to push men down). You want to destroy the patriarchy. And in doing so I think a lot of individual men get a really hard rap who are actually doing a really great job and trying to work out their own stuff, their own crap, their own relationship with money, their own relationship with their mothers and healing their father wounds, etc. I think it all comes into this wealth mindset of how can we all heal from childhood traumas and multi generational traumas, relationships with money, relationships with lack, and actually how can I have a really wonderful relationship with my partner, be able to look myself in the mirror and say, well done? And have a great relationship with business and to be able to ask for money without feeling ashamed and be able to invest and trust in my own intuition. And say, actually, I'm going to buy that bit of land, or I am going to buy that gold, or to invest in that company and feel really confident about it. For me, it's all encompassing.

I had this weird kind of moment when I turned 30, I finally realised that I was in control of all my decisions, and it was up to me to make decisions. I only had the reallisation because I was finally living alone. I was single, and I lived on my own for a few years. It was one of the best things I did. It caused me to look back and say, okay, so I've spent a good 10 years of my adult life not being an adult.

We don't realise because you're not consciously taught. This is how you adult, this is how you take responsibility. It's huge. And you know, I'll share something a bit personal. I called my dad once and said, ‘Dad, no matter how much I ask you and tell you how desperate I am, do not lend me any money don't give it’.

Because that cycle somewhere in my subconscious was 'don't worry about it, I'll just call Dad'. And that was never a conscious thought, but I knew that it was there. And what it did was stop me from taking responsibility for my own stuff in my own relationship with money like my own impulsive spending. My own comfort spending was definitely there. If I was having a shocking day off I went to TK Maxx online or Costco or buying crap I didn't need, I didn't want, didn't fill me with anything. And so taking responsibilities is so liberating within all of this.

Can you share how people could get in contact with you on your socials and your website? And anything you've got going on that people could get involved work with you have a chat with you?

Yes. So on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. My account is @iamcassiewatts And my website is Cassiewatts.co.uk. You can book a free call with me just for half an hour to have a chat.

Or you can book me for rapid transformational therapy and coaching. Where we really, really quickly get to the root cause of whatever it is that is holding you back. I work with self sabotage, imposter syndrome, procrastination, and get to the root cause of why you're in this crappy cycle that you're in. And then we reframe it. And we get really exciting and powerful and unique into thoughts and habits that you really want to have, to help you build that wealth and success that you want to feel every day.